This is a repost from the blog page www.BodyByScience.net regarding our RenEx Workshop on October 15th. We’ve added some pictures that we’re taken over the course of the day.
“I attended the RenEx Seminar in Cleveland this weekend. I was allowed to do a full workout on the new line. I didn’t just want to get on the machines to “see what they felt like”; I wanted to experience their full capability in a rapidly paced workout to complete failure with deep inroad. This turned out to be ideal. In fact, I would suggest that you have not truly experienced the capability of this equipment and its protocol unless you do so. This workout was unlike anything I have ever experienced and was as follows:
Disclaimer: What follows is not a paid endorsement, and I have NO financial interest with RenEx or Overload Fitness. My only financial bias is that UE Bulletin 1, the original UE bulletin and a Round Table Interview are being sold on the RenEx Products page.
RenEx Trunk Extension (supervised by Ken Hutchins)
RenEx Leg Press (supervised by Josh Trentine)
RenEx Pulldown (supervised by Gus Diamantopoulos)
RenEx Ventral Torso (supervised by ??-at this point I began to lose awareness of anything other than my movement and effort)
RenEx Compound Row (supervised by ??)
RenEx Overhead Press (supervised by Al Coleman)
One of the things that irritated me most about the articles and discussions on the internet from the RenEx guys was the esoteric and mystical language they invoked when discussing the equipment. Now that I’ve been through the above workout, I can say that I now understand the difficulty they have had avoiding this kind of language. All I can tell you is this…..Words Fail. However, I will do my best to give you some general impressions and insights.
1. Most pieces looked like the old SuperSlow systems line, but there were refinements and adjustments everywhere. Slight tilts of the handles or subtle changes in upholstery as well as the new weight stack technology were the new adjustments. To an untrained eye they may appear as “not much different from the machines in my facility”.
Josh and Doug
2. Once a set was under way, you could tell something VERY different was going on. These seemingly minor changes made a world of difference. By the time I started the second rep, I could not even perceive there was a machine there. I realized that if I closed my eyes, I could not even perceive that a machine was there, and that if I did not have prior knowledge of what the equipment looked like, I would have no perception of where the machine’s frame or movement arm would be located because it really did “feel like heavy air”. I felt as if I was simply moving my body through space in the most natural way possible, but against an utterly relentless resistance.
3. I could actually perform a perfect lower turnaround. On my own equipment I can never get this quite right, but on the RenEx pieces I was able to do great lower turnarounds almost immediately. Before this experience I did not understand how negatively even minimal friction affects the ability to do a good lower turnaround. If you realize friction is subtracted from your negative resistance and added to your positive resistance, you will understand how it creates a situation where a smooth transition from negative to positive is a real challenge. Now, a lower turnaround with friction feels like unexpectedly driving your car into a pothole. A lower turnaround on RenEx feels completely seamless.
4. No sticking points. No weak links. This was the most astonishing thing that I experienced. The fatiguing of the largest muscle group in a kinetic chain was in no way limited by the fatigue of the smaller muscle groups. It never made evolutionary or biological sense to me that the latissimus should be made to function through a link with a muscle that was much smaller and weaker. There had to be leverage factors at play that allowed the smaller groups to exert force on par with the larger groups in the kinetic chain. Even as a teenager I felt my toes curl in my shoes when Arthur said the purpose of the pullover was to bypass the weak link of the biceps. I particularly noted the lack of weak link in the RenEx pulldown. At no point did I feel as if I were going to fail because my grip was going to give out, or that my biceps were fatiguing faster than my lats. And it was not because I felt my forearms or biceps were being spared….indeed, they were being worked intensely. Instead, the timing of fatigue in my hands/forearms/biceps/chest/lats/abs seemed perfectly synchronized. When I hit failure, all the muscles in the kinetic chain were failing….and they were failing simultaneously. This was true across all movements. Leg press was not limited by quad burn. Ventral Torso (chest press) was not limited by the triceps. Compound Row was not limted by grip or the brachioradialis. Overhead Press was not limited by the triceps. I believe this experience is made possible by very subtle adjustments in the angles of the movement arm and handles as well as body positioning that actually takes advantage of biotensegrity-dictated kinetic chains.
5. I could “dig deep”. Many times I feel like I fail in a way that produces frustration. It seems like I failed from an inability to dig deep and push. I had always attributed this to a lack of willpower. Now I understand it was from a lack of purchase. In order to push really hard, you need something to push against. You need a backstop, and if leverage is involved, you need a fulcrum point. The positioning in the RenEx equipment involves a “get set” procedure that locks you into a coupling position. By coupling, I mean you form a couple where you can exert two forces in equal and opposite directions so that you will be stabilized. Any loss of this backstop when you are desperately fatigued will result in an abrupt drop-off in force output and premature failure. With the “coupled” position you can actually channel force through a kinetic chain until the true “bitter end”. This coupling seemed to be augmented by the density of the pads on the texture of the upholstery. Also, the movement arms had absolutely no flex or give.
6. A hard end-stop is key. Each piece had a sliding metal end-stop with a dense rubber pad that the weight stack would run into on the upper turnaround. This could be set ahead of time, as well as 0n-the-fly. The on-the-fly adjustment becomes important because seat pad/back pad compression during the set can change the exact location of the upper turnaround. The end-stop served to definitively rule out any lockout/sandbagging on the upper turnaround. More importantly the end-stop allowed the performance of the squeeze technique beginning on about the 3rd repetition. To do so, when you hit the end-stop you gradually ramp up to maximal force, hold that level until it starts to bleed off from fatigue (about 3-5 seconds) and then gradually “unsqueeze” and commence the negative. My personal theory is that this maximal squeeze serves to engage as many actin/myosin cross-bridges as possible (which brings us to the next point).
Doug Discussing Friction
7. Speed of movement is a non-issue. When a perfect lower turnaround is married to great squeeze technique, perfect speed of movement occurs. During my workout I was never commanded to “slow down”. I was frequently told to “hurry up” or “catch me”. I would be pushing as hard and as fast as I could but the movement just crawled along. I was trying to “catch up” to a 10 count that the instructor was giving, but I could only finish around 13 or 14. I think a seemless/gradual lower turnaround and a hard end-stop squeeze engages the greatest number of actin/myosin cross-bridges possible. This creates the difference between the movement of a centipede and the movement of a millipede. Regardless of mechanism, the experience is one of maximal effort producing slow and continuous movement.
8. Deep internalization occurs. I was nervous and distracted before my workout. Everyone stayed behind to watch. I was being supervised by the most anal-retentive form Nazis on the planet. Boyer Coe (who I idolized as a teenager) was watching. Ken Hutchins was watching. I had every reason to be distracted. Even during my best workouts, my mind wanders…and it wants to wander when my concentration should be the greatest. The combination of the equipment, the protocol and the supervision (not to mention the resulting intensity) resulted in very deep internalization. By the time I got off Trunk Extension, I had no awareness of the crowd. By the time I was midway through the Pulldown I had lost awareness of anything but the effort. From the Chest Press onward, I do not know if I correctly recollect who was instructing me. Other than a handful of BMX races, I do not ever recall having such a “Flow” experience.
9. The metabolic effect was astronomical. What was peculiar is that it seemed perfectly paired to the local/muscular effect. In other workouts, I have had the experience of a large metabolic effect from the Leg Press causing the rest of the workout to fall apart. During this workout, the systemic effect seemed to come entirely from the local effect…muscular fatigue and metabolic effect were coordinated and synergistic. I think this lack of coordination occurs as a result of what the RenEx guys call “Outroading” which I interpret as metabolic work that is spent on activity that does not result in inroading.
10. The aftermath was unexpected. In the first minutes and hours after the workout I was fearful that I may have really overdone the intensity (butterfly hunting with a bazooka). By today I feel more recovered than I normally do. I also feel as if I have had a full-body alignment. Everything feels fluid and coordinated and I feel as if I’m 2 inches taller.
Now….Some other cool things from the event:
1. Boyer Coe was there. When I first walked into the lobby of the hotel it was very empty, only hotel employees were around. As I headed toward my room, I looked down a short hallway and immediately noticed Boyer Coe! I shouted out his name and walked up to him as if we were old friends (even though we never met). It slipped my mind that he was a huge part of my life as a starry-eyed teenager, but he had never laid eyes on me. At age 65 (I am told) he looks amazing…as I approach 50 it is good to know what is possible.
Doug and Others Watching Al's Workout
2. Al Coleman is a freak! He is exploring the mind/body connection for no other reason than to see how hard a human can volitionally push themselves. While he is not particularly concerned with getting “swole”, he has grown a lot of muscle since I last saw him. I was concerned that there actually be tangible results from the “other end of the black box”. There has definitely been some hypertrophy going on with Al and all the RenEx team.
3. I got to meet Chuck Spencer (Chasbari from the Darden Board). He is doing personal research on infimetrics that is revealing interesting data that meshes well with what the RenEx people are doing. I have encouraged him to set up his own blog/website to document his work.
4. Researchers from Johns Hopkins were there. They are working with Dr. Kevin Fontaine on research projects investigating the therapeutic utility of high intensity exercise (using RenEx protocol and equipment) in rheumatoid arthritis and other inflammatory conditions.
5. An Endocrinologist from the U.K. attended. He is combining a Hunter-Gatherer diet and high intensity exercise as the default treatment of his patients with type II diabetes. With great courage he has opted out of the Public Health Service to carry out his vision. He is another example of a long line of thinking doctors who is demonstrating to the bureaucrats and government experts that they are irrelevant.
6. Brenda Hutchins just turned 60…..and you would never believe it.
7. I got to visit the Overload facility. They have more cool machines, toys and retrofits than you can imagine. If I had access to this playground, I would be chronically overtrained.
This is all I can say for now, so post your WOW’s/thoughts/questions.”
{ 16 comments… read them below or add one }
Josh,
I had no idea how little weight was on the overhead press!! By the time I got there I was so metabolically toasted that it felt incredibly heavy. By heavy I do not mean that “feels light in my hand, but heavy to the targeted muscle”…I mean HEAVY. This was a beautiful demonstration of “Intensity vs Work in Exercise” which is now Chapter 8 in the new technical manual “The Renaissance of Exercise”. I’m sure the plate-heads will see that photo and comment on how weak I am. Until you experience the effect I’m talking about….you have NO idea.
Doug,
That machine has a pretty good stroke…..as you know (W=FxD)
We always estimate “light” on demonstrations…with a few sessions you’d probably use twice as much load and obviously the toll of the entire workout has a big impact….we actually were the lightest on Ventral Torso (relatively) , but you are rigft-‘ a beautiful demonstration of “Intensity vs Work in Exercise”……’
Maybe next conference will build machines that have weight stack travels half as much and we’ll all look way stronger :-).
If anyone gets a good look at your build I can’t imagine even the densest plate-head calling you weak.
Gentlemen –
Might is be possible to “inroad” or, rather, fatigue the muscles too deeply?
As I see it, these techniques are unnecessary for maximizing growth/strength. I think we all know legions of lifters who use basic equipment and never train to failure who develop fantastic physiques.
Clearly, Josh has great genetics. This is why he is as large as he is and why most of us will never obtain that kind of mass if we wanted to regardless of the equipment used.
I have never seen better gains using deep inroading techniques. What I have observed is that resistance, not inroad is what does the job.
For example:
Take an exercise where you are currently failing in ~2:00.
Add 50% more weight.
You will now fail in ~:50 seconds.
Q: What is wrong with failing in 50 seconds? Back in the Nautilus days (when we all got great results), time to fatigue was 40 to 70 seconds.
In making this weight jump, you have just saved yourself ~2 years worth of weight increases.
Weights should move slowly because you can’t lift them fast if you tried, not because you choose to move slowly.
Do a set of slow pushups. Mark the time to failure.
Now do a set of quick pushups. Mark the time to failure.
The fast set will terminate much sooner. Ever wonder why?
Another example:
Pick an exercise and use a 2/4 tempo using a weight that brings you to failure in 60 seconds.
Now, if you want to reach failure in the SAME time using a slow tempo, what is it that you have to do?
Mr. Hahn,
Thank you for your inquiry. It is valid to question the degree of inroad we desire. We feel that there is, indeed, as fine line between not enough and too much.
What we are declaring is that efficiency is as important as effectiveness and these two aspects exist on a sliding scale.
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with 50-70 seconds but for what kind of subject? A seasoned veteran? Of course. A rank beginner? Of course not! Not for our standards, anyway. Too risky we say. We like safe. We like progression, but gradually. You may disagree and you’re welcome to this but our collective experience suggests that beginners and intermediates are nowhere near capable of such feats as a 60 second set of well performed reps to proper muscle failure. To ask them of such is akin to asking a 2nd grade piano student to suddenly play Rachmaninoff…
You said resistance is key. Bravo. We applaud this because most people say “weight”. Resistance is what you feel at the point of contact with the movement arm and it may be completely independent of “weight”, especially on our machines and especially if we fatigue you to the point that rest intervals are diminished to near zero. Indeed, resistance and it’s relationship to inroad and time are most critical. We have exclusively focused on this aspect and lament how short-sighted our detractors are with regards to the how much poundage is utilized. Your muscles only know intensity of effort. If 20lbs can be made to feel like 80, who cares if 80 actual pounds are on the stack…. Of course, this is our premise with out TSC prototcol…but I digress…
Of course genetics are the front line of cause for development but Josh certainly does NOT have the kinds of genes that predispose him to his physical state. He may have better genes than some but not the kind that people would think…
Regardless of genes, we believe diet is 90 percent of the reason any superior physique appears as such. Look at Hollywood. On camera, the Goslings, the Reynolds, and the Craigs all look massive and ripped and heroic…but alas, they are (non of them) not nearly as large as they appear. They are lean, they are muscular, and they are well lit. A typical stage bodybuilder would look like a monster standing next to these guys.. Albeit a short monster….
In the end, all we are suggesting is that Dr. Mcguff’s idea of Dose-Response is better represented in RenEx, on RenEX equipment and in a RenEx environment than in any other iteration of the philisophy. You can workout using any version of this philisophy and it can be done anywhere and on anything, of course. But with the level of specific attention that we are calling for, we feel inroad effects are stimulating enough for all and deleterious to none. The side benefits are all the subsystems we’ve always talked about…cardiovascular, metabolic etc etc.
-RenEx Team-
“most displays of inroading up to this point have been better examples of outroading, thus no one knows if deep levels of inroad are unnecessary.” -Al Coleman
What we are declaring is that efficiency is as important as effectiveness and these two aspects exist on a sliding scale.
****Hmm. I’m not sure exactly what you mean. I do agree that if the degree of effectiveness is equal, the more efficient protocol (less time spent exercising (to a point), the better. There may be some degree of benefit to the act of exercising e.g., reduced blood glucose levels, enhanced blood flow, etc. So if you’re inroad/depletion is too deep requiring you to exercise only once every 10 days, this may not be a good thing.
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with 50-70 seconds but for what kind of subject? A seasoned veteran? Of course. A rank beginner? Of course not! Not for our standards, anyway. Too risky we say. We like safe. We like progression, but gradually. You may disagree and you’re welcome to this but our collective experience suggests that beginners and intermediates are nowhere near capable of such feats as a 60 second set of well performed reps to proper muscle failure. To ask them of such is akin to asking a 2nd grade piano student to suddenly play Rachmaninoff…
****Well, we get the typical client to the point of deep muscle fatigue within the 50-80 second time in ~10 sessions or so. Often less. I think it’s all a matter of how you teach them.
You said resistance is key. Bravo. We applaud this because most people say “weight”. Resistance is what you feel at the point of contact with the movement arm and it may be completely independent of “weight”, especially on our machines and especially if we fatigue you to the point that rest intervals are diminished to near zero. Indeed, resistance and it’s relationship to inroad and time are most critical. We have exclusively focused on this aspect and lament how short-sighted our detractors are with regards to the how much poundage is utilized. Your muscles only know intensity of effort. If 20lbs can be made to feel like 80, who cares if 80 actual pounds are on the stack…. Of course, this is our premise with out TSC prototcol…but I digress…
****That’s correct. The number sticker is meaningless. Instead of numbers, I’ve often thought of putting the alphabet on the weights. “You are now contracting against P+2. Who cares as long as there is progression.
Of course genetics are the front line of cause for development but Josh certainly does NOT have the kinds of genes that predispose him to his physical state. He may have better genes than some but not the kind that people would think…
****I wasn’t implying Josh had Mentzer’s genetics. Just good enough to be as large as he is. He’s be that large if he lifted free weights.
Regardless of genes, we believe diet is 90 percent of the reason any superior physique appears as such. Look at Hollywood. On camera, the Goslings, the Reynolds, and the Craigs all look massive and ripped and heroic…but alas, they are (non of them) not nearly as large as they appear. They are lean, they are muscular, and they are well lit. A typical stage bodybuilder would look like a monster standing next to these guys.. Albeit a short monster….
****Theatrics play a big part to be sure.
In the end, all we are suggesting is that Dr. Mcguff’s idea of Dose-Response is better represented in RenEx, on RenEX equipment and in a RenEx environment than in any other iteration of the philisophy. You can workiout using any version of this philisophy and it can be done anywhere and on anything, of course. But with the level of specific attention that we are calling for, we feel inroad effects are stimulating enough for all and deleterious to none. The side benefits are all the subsystems we’ve always talked about…cardiovascular, metabolic etc etc.
*****Agreed. However, i’m not so certain that the equipment matters all that much. I am increasingly convinced it almost doesn’t matter at all save for a few specific machines and even then not so much. Look at the erectors of any lean power lifter. Massive. How did they get this way without a linear spine or a MedX lumbar extension? How are the thighs of lean Olympic lifters so massive without leg extensions? It would be very interesting to do a study with untrained identical twins – one using free weights the other RenEx equipment for 8 weeks. I don’t think we’d see a difference.
Mr.Hahn,
-We do not recommend or require exercise once every 10 days.
-Equipment does matter. You can hammer a nail with a screwdriver but a hammer is far better.
-We can virtually garantee you that an advanced RenEx subject can do any standard HIT workout, even on the fly, with no prior teaching, but no standard HIT subject (no matter how advanced) will do as well first time on RenEx. 60 seconds on Rx equipment is an entirely different world than 60 seconds on stock medx.Our workouts are simply more involved, require more concentration, and higher effort.You are entitled to believe this is neither necessary nor desirabe, but our program is based on this necessity.
-None of us ever said this was the only way to train. If you want to lift barbells, go right ahead. It’s not what we do.
-RenEx Team
Mr.Hahn,
Thanks for your comments so far. At this point, since there is nothing new to glean or learn from this exchange, we can simply agree to disagree.
RenEx Team
I am a little confused on the subject of muscular contraction:
Doug Mcguff mentioned in his blog post on ‘ My RenEx Experience’ that the smooth lower turn around and end-stop squeeze technique activated a greater number of myosin- actin cross bridges, which creates the difference that is akin to the movement of a centipede compared to the movement of a millipede.
I have believed so far that in physics, for example if a load is held by a metal cable or a rope, and a thread from that cable or rope is weaker than the others, then that thread will snap if the overall weight is too great as I assumed that every thread in that rope or cable is baring the same load, so the weight is distributed homogenously. Which lead me to assume that the muscle must surely have to fully contract every fibre when it is resisting a load, REGARDLESS OF THAT LOAD, amd the heavier loads are simply being resisted by the muscle merely because more energy is being given to that muscle in a shorter time. How, I would like to ask, is it possible to bare a given load with a muscle and be able to gradually involve more muscle fibres( myosin-actin cross bridges) as the intensity of the set increases? Is there something that i do not understand about how the muscle works ?
Dear RenEx Team ;
Please excuse if it is difficult to understand what I was previously asking(as reading back through it does seem a bit unclear) ,to back up my question take this simple scenario:
A car is being dragged along a road by a rope, a single thread in that rope, according to physics, is baring exactly the same load as every other thread, as the resistance is distributed homogenously. If one single thread is weaker than any other thread, it will snap. From this example of a basic physical law, I assume that the muscles in the body respond in very much the same way ? so how can you possibly invove more threads( muscle fibres) as the resistance (intensity of the exercise) increases, if every thread in the rope( muscle fibre) is already baring the same load?
I will be very gratefull for your insight 🙂
Rope fibers don’t contract.
Yet the implications are such that we are lead to believe that muscle fibres contract sequentially, so therefore there must be ‘dormant’ muscle fibres which “awaken” only as intensity progresses, unlikely! The point I’m trying to make is that all your fibres are holding the weight at the same time.
No. Your body recruits only as many motor units as it needs to produce the necessary level of force – as the recruited motor units fatigue and the force they are capable of producing goes down more and larger motor units are recruited to maintain the required level. There may be some tension on them but they are not all holding the weight.
Individual fibers either contract with a maximum effort or none at all. If you pick up a light weight you have a smaller number of motor units contracting maximally rather than all motor units contracting moderately hard with the effort divided between them. That being said, all the motor units in most muscles can be recruited within a short time period with only moderately heavy loads (after which further increases in force require an increase in rate coding) but the recruitment is still sequential.
Thanks for the quick reply! I didn’t know what rate coding was and looked it up just now on wikepedia. :+ after reading about it I thought indeed could it be possibe that rate coding is the only way that muscles contract? I mean how are scientists supposed to tell us that there is such thing as sequential recruitment, if they yet have no means to actually see what is going on underneath the skin? Or do they? My hypothesis is that our muscle fibres are like hydraulic cylinders and the force production is dictated by the type of “fliud medium” that enters the fibres. Check it out in hydraulics, you could go on to say that the more blood that enters the fibres the denser the fluid medium hence the greater the pressure thus the stronger the force production ! And if all fibres contract maximally each time they bare a load could this be that they are simply contracting at the same speed as each other but aren’t neccassarily contracting against a higher pressurem thus less force. f=ma think I’m barking maybe lol
No. If you are really interested in learning how muscles function I recommend picking up a copy of Skeletal Muscle Structure, Function, and Plasticity by Richard Lieber.
I have been reading alot of the articles you guys publish and watching alot of your videos on you tube and i am very impressed at your workouts and physiques.You guys as well as Doug Mcguff have taken fitness to a higher level and also have made it so the average person has time to workout efficiently.I am from Jamestown NY and I belong to Snap Fitness and was wondering do you think your workouts can be done on other exercise machines?One other question is do you think leg extensions are safe?