Dumpers
Part IV
Segment G
By
Ken Hutchins, Josh Trentine, Gus Diamantopoulos,
Drew Baye & Al Coleman
General Conclusions Regarding the Dumpers
Both the positive and negative phases of exercise are important—equally important. When the equipment is designed properly and the exercise is performed properly, hyperloading of the negative phase is unnecessary. What’s more, mechanical attempts to hyperload the negative are unnecessarily expensive and excessively dangerous. The energy and enthusiasm toward negative hyperloading openly exposes ignorance—ignorance regarding proper movement speed… ignorance regarding the need for continuous loading… ignorance regarding proper machine friction and cam profiling… ignorance of reasonable safety… and ignorance regarding proper muscle and joint function tracking.
We classify the ARX, the Motivator, the Life Circuit, the Exerbotics, and the NOS machines as purely robotic devices. However, the MaxOut and the X-Force are termed “hybrids” because they are both weight driven AND utilize robotic controls. We regard the hybrids as far more dangerous than the pure robotic devices. (The Keiser does not fit well into either of these classifications.)
For instance, when performing the positive of a chest press on the ARX or the Exerbotics the subject can back off volitional force and/or release the handles as shoulder pain ensues. The machine continues movement as though the subject is not present, and the subject safely ignores its motion.
In contrast, when the same situation presents on the X-Force, the weight stack switches and hyperloads the compromised subject.
We predict an avalanche of injuries with the X-Force—as well as with the ARX and Exerbotics equipment. Meanwhile, they serve us as profound examples of what not to do in exercise equipment design.
Our advice is to avoid all dumpers. If you are a client using any dumper, quit immediately. If you own any form of dumper, sell it or junk it. If you are a rep or advocate for any dumper company, find another job and try to distance yourself from this part of your job history.
Legend:
NOS: Nautilus / Organ / Sencil Prototype
NA1: Not applicable due to weight-stack only device (as regards the Maxout) that bolts onto others’ products
NA2: Not applicable due to non-availability (as regards the NOS)
Yes1
?: Inadequate information
The Future of Exercise?
The advent and popularity of the dumpers might make the future of exercise appear rather gloomy. Presently it seems that the Neanderthals of the strength training community have won out and there is no hope for our intelligent approach.
You might ask, “Is there any substantial revolution in exercise on the horizon that can jettison us forward onto a new playing field offering a quantum improvement in productivity and safety for a majority of the population?”
The answer is a resounding “YES.” Closely following Dumpers IV will be the unveiling of new exercise equipment that safely and correctly accomplishes what the dumpers only claimed to do. This will be a new vista of exploration for all of us.
We are about to launch into a vast, explosive arena of information that was never available before… an information source that exercise physiologists and physical therapists have been seeking for the past 100 years… a level of safety that was never before imagined… a way to help almost anyone who needs greater muscular strength in order to save or improve their health… a method of documentation and standardization never before attainable in exercise research…
… The Future is Now!
This concludes our opinions regarding the dumpers.
{ 64 comments… read them below or add one }
Frankly, I have not been following the dumpers series as closely as I normally follow RenEx postings. These machines, whether useful or not (and it appears not), are so far out of the realm of what is availible to most excercise enthusiast’s that I question the time spent dissecting them.
That said, I allow that I don’t know what I don’t know about what the RenEx team has in store, and how that may relate to “Dumpers”, but I am intrigued to move past this and see what’s next.
“I allow that I don’t know what I don’t know about what the RenEx team has in store, and how that may relate to “Dumpers”, but I am intrigued to move past this and see what’s next”
🙂
To be completely clear re what one advocates, one must be completely clear re what one -doesn’t- advocate. To not do so invites a lifetime of “what about this or that” questions from each new prospective client. Thanks.
EXACTLY!
Well stated Mark!
Bring on the revolution!
More Ren ex machines in gyms accross the world please!
We’re workin’ on it 🙂
Hey Guys, I have definately enjoyed and appreciated this series. I don’t see myself using anything other than free weights or other conventional equipment in the foreseeable future. But, knowledge is knowledge. I will continue to follow this blog as well as some others.
The bit about proper leg extension padding in the previous segment really caught my attention.
I hope Drew is healing or healed from his bad encounter.
I’m not sure I understand direct resistance the way you guys are defining it. Or if I understand the “need” for direct resistance. For a long time I thought that some of the single joint Nautilus machines were the be all end all of addressing the various part of the body. My thinking now is not so closed minded. I know from an efficieny standpoint this would not be ideal. But, when I think of “machines designed around the man” i find myself coming back to the idea of direct resistance. This is probably addressed in some or all of the RenEx compound exercises, as I recall Doug McGuff talking about his RenEx workout.
Just some things that have been in my brain. 🙂
Donnie,
I experienced a sharp pain just below the kneecap while using the X-Force leg extension and a twinge there whenever using stairs for several weeks afterwards but am fine now. Thanks.
You’re welcome Drew. Glad to hear you’re back to 100%! 🙂
Al was injured on the Exerbotics and the X-Force both the first and only use.
I hope your neck starts improving Al. What happened to you with the “XForce adventure”? I must have missed it in my reading?
Hey Donnie,
Thanks for inquiring.
My neck has healed in the sense that it isn’t locked up to the point where I can’t move it freely. It does still give me the occasional twinge and it definitely still feels like there is something “off”.
This has improved as of late with the inclusion of TSC neck extension and TSC lateral neck flexion. More coming soon on the advancements we have made there.
Al
I don’t think Al has commented on this yet. I don’t think he wanted to comment prior to the DUMPERS articles coming out.
While I have no personal experience with any of the equipment discussed in the dumpers series, I can comment on my experience with negative only exercise. Before I was introduced to the works of Ken Hutchins I incorporated sets of negative only exercise in my twice weekly routine. My routines were not entirely N.O. but included enough N.O. to provide basis for my conclusions. This experimentation lasted approximately 1 year. N.O. exercise yielded me nothing in the way of results. N.O. exercise didn’t help me gain an ounce of muscle mass, and what little “strength” I felt I gained was really an illusion. N.O. exercise did however make me very good at completely avoiding the real objective of exercise. Because all my focus and energy was wasted on satisfying the assumed objective I foolishly believed I had gotten somewhat stronger. I just got really good at bracing and completely avoiding the inroad process. In addition, the only injuries I have ever sustained as a result of exercise occurred during my foray into negative only.
I have since unlearned my bad habits and have been able to experience truly meaningful muscular loading. I am constantly trying to improve and refine my ability to inroad. Because I have completely abandoned traditional nautilus and HIT conventions in favor of something FAR more refined I am finally seeing the results I lusted after for years.
It also helps to have access to RenEx equipment every single time I workout!
Hi Josh,
For all the sceptics
Could we put it as
RenX = Higgs boson?
“The discovery has been described as our “rendezvous with destiny”
Let the future of exercise begin
My only experience with negative only exercise came when I was powerlifting. To break a plateau, at the end of my normal workout I would add 50 – 70 pounds over my previous best single on the bench press and lower it for 3 reps as slowly as possible; I had 3 spotters who lifted it back. That was it, a very crude way of doing them but I got very good results from them and got noticeably thicker and stronger in my chest/shoulders/tricep area and even my upper back. So my very limited experiment with them worked, for me anyway. I was taught this by Rick Weil, one of the best bench pressers of all time.
FYI for Donnie Hunt:
It’s important that you understand “direct resistance.”
You perform chin-ups or pull downs to work a host of upper-body musculatures, however these exercises are most important for the large torso muscles. The torso muscles receive filtered resistance through the weaker arm, forearm, and hand musculatures–hence they are known collectively as the weak link in chin-ups or pull down.
A weak link for the torso musculatures is present in any compound (multiple joint) exercise and can be circumvented only by applying the resistance directly to upper arms in the case of the examples likened above for the upper torso.
Direct Resistance is the #2 requirement of Arthur Jones’ Ten Requirements of Full-Range Exercise. This is all explained in great detail in RoE-I.
Ken
Thanks alot Ken! You and the other guys have really given me much to think about. I’ve read down through yours and the others more recent comments regarding “direct resistance”. I will get around to ordering your book eventually. I’ve got yours and Bill DeSimones latest on my “to get” list. Good Stuff!
Hi Ken
Would you say that direct TSC, of the targeted muscles, before the compound movement (ie: TSC chest fly with yoga block directly into ventral torso) is the best way to reduce the effect of the weak links. If yes, could this be done all the time or just occasionally?
I always wondered why the reps or TULs drop on the compound movement if I used the same weight as I would of used without the TSC done before. Would it mean the arms weren’t effected by the TSC so the muscles of the chest loss more strength … and hopefully a better inroad … before the arms lost their strength to move the given weight being used?
Thanks
John
Sonny,
Also note that Ronnie Ray–another great bencher–developed shoulder problems to the point that he could not tolerate negative-only training. So he progressed yet further with the application of 10-12-second positive repetitions. He could perform the SuperSlow positives with much less pain and risk of injury!
Ken
As long as we’re on direct exercise /pre-exhaust, /etc, I’ve been wondering: Unless I’m on a designated timetable for specific muscle growth, (competing bodybuilders are the only example I can think of), do such things matter?: So what if grip & biceps are the weak links to my lats?; if grip & biceps keep getting stronger; lats will keep getting an increased load; soon reaching an effective load. Maybe not the optimal load, but considered in regard to possible benefits of a more brief, focused workout, a good trade-off (?)
Marklloyd,
“… Unless I’m on a designated timetable for specific muscle growth, (competing bodybuilders are the only example I can think of)…”
Why would you believe that gaining muscle for this group was more imperative than for an older woman with osteoporosis?
I may get to your central question latter?
Ken
Mark and John,
In addition to Ken’s replies, I’d like to add that much of what we once surmised regarding pre-exhaust and direct resistance may not matter in the context of some of the insights we’ve gleaned from TSC with feedback.
There is a whole new world of insights to be revealed through the lens of TSC that we hope to start sharing soon.
Al
marklloyd,
As you seem to suspect, pre-exhaustion and direct resistance still do matter, but usually not as much as we once believed for general application. Hence, you see that most of the new RenEx equipment designs are for compound movements.
Direct resistance becomes extremely important for many rehabilitation concerns. More of the RenEx designs for these movements are still in development.
k
If direct resistance is a #2 requirement why don’t you prescribe them in your renex book??You concentrate on compound movements instead.Doug McGuff stated that people have better development of their arms from compound movements like bench press and chins or pull-downs.
Nathan,
I don’t understand your question.
Joshua
I think he may be referring to, correct me if I’m wrong, Nathan. Doug talking about how working out on the RenEx compound machines seemed to compensate for the “weak links”??? Didn’t doug write something along these lines in his article about his RenEx workout back in October? I do see in some of the comments here that Ken says that you still must have direct resistance machines for certain situations.
Sorry guys. My comment here kinda went astray. Ken answered Nathan’s question.
If my memory serves me correctly Doug did say something along the lines of “weak links” not seeming to be an issue with the RenEx compound machines.
Biomechanical improvement may have lessened the peripheral fatigue and improved sensation to the prime movers.
Responding to Nathan Block:
Direct-Resistance, Rotary-Form, Single-Joint movements are not emphasized in the RenEx textbook because we agree with Doug McGuff that compound movements are more generally beneficial, are easier to teach and instruct, are easier to master, are easier to critique and accurately record, and consume less precious workout time.
Ken
RenEx,
I just ended up getting rid of two “direct resistance pieces.” A 10 degree chest and super pullover. I’ve slowly but surely come to the conclusion that compound movements are all that are required for the vast majority of applications. Also, as much as I love the pullover – I refuse to perform it. Every time I do – even using a 10/10 and sometimes even a 14/14 cadence, I develop a neck spasm that is incapacitating.
Matt
Ken just answered my question with the one above mine.Josh what do you think of J-reps?Is it really the best way to train as Johnston states?I love super slow and logically think it is the only way to train properly.It is also unbelievably tough.But then when the going gets tough the tough get going.
SuperSlow protocol is not for the discomfort adverse, many people just aren’t willing to “go there”…..that being said, good equipment helps…..using more traditional equipment, barbell or body-weight requires supreme concentration. It can be done and is very efficient as well as the best long term approach….more vids to come soon too!
Will be looking forward to these vids!
Presently it seems that the Neanderthals of the strength training community have won out and there is no hope for our intelligent approach.
==Scott==
It is your approach that needs work , not your system or machines!! You have fine machines and your system has merit but the REN-EX approach of arrogance has turned even the most open trainee off to your message. Take a lesson from X-Force. They came on the scene in a none confrontational manner without a nose up in the air attitude. Dr. Darden did experiments with their machines and displayed results in a friendly, non pompous and honest manner. People gravitate to what X-force has to offer even if the machines are less than desirable. You could turn around alot of “Neanderthals” thinking towards your position if you change your approach to more friendly less arrogant and condescending approach to everything else but your system..
Personally I want to see REN-EX succeed, but I’m afraid that if your guys continue on as you are now, with the arrogant condescending attitude, REN-EX will be a failure regardless of the quality of machines that you make.
Scott,
The only lesson we can learn from X-Force is how NOT to build a machine.
Joshua
==Scott==
Then all I can say is take off the blinders. You guys are smarter than that. At least Ken appears to be?
Dunno Scott…I’m just a dumb bodybuilder, but I think we are better off keeping our blinders on and focused on task.
Blinders, are a piece of horse tack that prevent the horse seeing to the rear and, in some cases, to the side. Many racehorse trainers believe these keep the horse focused on what is in front of him, encouraging him to pay attention to the race rather than other distractions, such as crowds.
We’re not looking to the sides and not looking back, we’re focused straight ahead… the future of exercise is now…
Joshua
===Scott==
If you are so focused on looking ahead how is it that you spend so much time on what is around you on all sides and behind you like Dumper machines etc? These little speeches like you just made sound good but mean very little. I’ll be waiting for the next little motivational speech you found in some exercise marketing class.
The RenEx team has done it’s fair share in the last year and a half, I’ll put the quantity and quality of our work against anyone in the field for an equal period of time.
I’m going to tell you the same as I did over a year ago….I don’t believe our work is of any use to YOU and I don’t think your posts or time here are productive or constructive.
==Scott==
Quite the contrary alot of what you guys have said is quite useful. I have learned quite a bit from what your guys have to offer.How do you figure my suggestions on how you can improve your business by changing you approach is not constructive??? Maybe it’s something you don’t want to hear but it is something you really need to consider. One of your biggest problems is you just have no tolerance for anyone questioning what you say. They either go along with you like sheep or you write them off as trouble makers.I do think you learned something from Arthur Jones though. There was this instance at a conference where a person in the audience challenged Jones on something and he said lets go out back and fight about it. This seems to be the REN-EX attitude.In this case you have taken the worst from Jones , not his best.
“I’m going to tell you the same as I did over a year ago….I don’t believe our work is of any use to YOU and I don’t think your posts or time here are productive or constructive.”
^Amen^
Scott,
I’ve only been reading these blogs for about 4 months and I think it’s awfully gracious of these guys to even entertain your flaming.
I for one don’t see it as a condescending attitude on behalf of the Ren-Ex team. It’s a correct attitude.
After all, there’s a good way to exercise and a better way to exercise. They’re apparently about the better way.
Ren-Ex obviously has the gumption to call out the tripe drivel paraded as exercise in the mainstream and what’s more, actually promote proper exercise.
I can’t believe how intimately they respond to each blog. We should all be so lucky.
C’mon, dude.
Nothing’s changed since Arthur’s day… Intelligent exercise is still on the island surrounded by “belligerent retarded monkeys.”
Don’t be one of them.
Ken just answered my question the one above mine.Josh what do you think about J-reps?Is it the best way to train as Johnston states?To me super slow is the only proper way to train
Hi Nathan,
I think Brian Johnston came up with a very good way to deal with the “mechanical speed bumps”, friction issues and backwards resistance curves with some equipment. The thinking behind this makes me think that Brian understands inroad…all of that being said if equipment is that far off I say avoid it. 10/10 with body-weight resistance whips most machines anyway and 10/5 can be applied when less than ideal conditions exist.
Thanks Josh and Ken.Next week I will be vacationing near Tampa,Florida.Is there nearby a super-slow facility(radius up to 300km),with ren-ex machines and supervision?thanks
Orlando with Ken Hutchins, although I currently only have 4 RenEx machines in that studio…well worth the trip though.
Sorry to bother Josh,but I can not find an exact address to that Orlando facility on the net.thanks
285 W Central Pkwy, Suite 1732
Altamonte Springs, FL 32714
407.862.2552
studio is called OVERLOAD FITNESS
Response to John Tatore:
First Question: Doing the TSC chest fly with a yoga block or something similar and suitable is a great way to reduce the effects of the weak links in a compound movement, but not the best. The best way is a product we are developing to provide feedback for this. Sorry, I am not able to discuss this as of yet.
Second Question: Sure. You should be surprised if performance does not decrease—AS YOU BECOME STRONGER—on the secondary exercise (of a two-exercise pre-exhaustion sequence). Note that as you become stronger and more capable of focusing and inroading—“digging a hole” as I say—during the primary exercise, you arrive at the secondary exercise progressively more spent. Thus, this procedure makes it “appear” that you are weaker on the secondary exercise.
You must evaluate the entire pre-exhaustion series somewhat as a singular, continuous exercise.
And note that if you are seeing your performance in the secondary exercise appreciably improve after you have settled into supposedly-correct numbers, then you should suspect something amiss with the procedure. Possibilities include (one or more in combination):
• The numbers (resistance, TUL) are incorrect.
• The subject is not deeply inroading on the primary exercise due to a host of reasons—focus, will and effort, skill and understanding, etc.
• The time between the primary and secondary exercises is excessive. More than 2-3 seconds is maximum for a meaningful effect from the primary exercise onto the secondary exercise.
Also possible is that you are truly improving in both exercises. Although unlikely, it is the best possible situation. This is more likely in the early stages of the program wherein you are still finding the correct numbers and/or the subject is a novice with a large untapped potential
Ken
Ken
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. Great onfo. I appreciate it.
John
I was thinking about what Ken said in his reply regarding …..
“And note that if you are seeing your performance in the secondary exercise appreciably improve after you have settled into supposedly-correct numbers, then you should suspect something amiss with the procedure. Possibilities include (one or more in combination):
• The numbers (resistance, TUL) are incorrect.”
My question ….
We know that the first TSC exercise would be 1:30 minutes long so how could we be incorrect with the time(numbers ) on the second exercise? Should this second exercise be on the low rep side since we treat the two pre-exhaustion sequence as a single exercise and we don’t want to go too long with the time. What does the RenX team recommend as a starting point in number of reps on the second exercise?
OK … Did compound exercises today after doing a TSC pre-exhaust before and what happened was that I dropped two reps on the compound exercises. I did this for Compound Row and Ventral Press. SInce I had the experience of using the RenX TSC Pullover followed by TSC Pulldown machine, supervised by Gus, I have a good ides of what I should be feeling from the TSC exercise since I can’t measure my force output (start of heavy breathing half way through the 75% section and the last 15 seconds of all out being really hard and can’t waiting for it to end … just like when Gus trained me on the RenX machine). I’ll be doing this for a few rounds of these exercises to see what happens with the TUL (or reps) on the compound exercises. I think when the TSC can be measured you will really hit the TSC harder and make the compound exercise even harder. Great stuff.
Pre-exhaust doesn’t seem all that different from just doing 2 sets for the stronger body part, (and we ‘re all the same page about -that-, right?). Yes, it serves its purpose of allowing a more balanced failure in the compound movement, but the huge effort,(thus overall effect), possible on a fresh compound has been lessened, and the idea of compounds’ efficiency is somewhat undone by the greater number of exercises. If a subject values the pullover, why not just do biceps curls afterwards?
Ken,
You once wrote that you appreciated the MedX weight stack design from a mechanical standpoint, and that you had designed a guide rod-less weight stack. Since you mentioned the Nautilus One line, what do you think of it’s weight selector/ drive system?
Thanks
As far as I can determine the Nautilus One resistance engines are fine. However, I have scant experience to say if they remain so over time and usage. I condemn the Nautilus One for many functionality reasons, but I have little to say against their resistance engines or the quality of their upholstery.
k
Ken,
Thanks for the reply. Speaking of upholstery, A while back on Dr. Darden’s forum I asked Josh a question regarding the height of the seat back on the Ventral Torso. I think Josh thought I was referring to trimming the upholstery when I asked if there was ever any discussion to shorten the height of the back so that the torso could flex at the start of the movement, arched like the the finish position of the Linear Spine machine. Was this ever considered ? It would seem this would involve the abdominals earlier in the movement.
Mike
Correction: The starting position of the Linear Spine machine.
Mike,
The abdominals are loaded throughout this movement. You might not feel them, but they are.
And yes, this has been thoroughly considered. It was weighed against the problems exacerbated by creating more complexity in the exercise.
Ken
Hey Al,
You’re welcome. Glad to hear your neck is improving! I need to make a habit of exercising my neck.
You guys have really made me think alot about load, speed, bracing, and outroading to name some.
Dear RenEx Team,
Thank you for the wealth of information that has been shared in your Dumpers series. I had the privilege of being able to read it for the first time a few days ago, so I read the whole series and all the comments that followed in a matter of hours because I couldn’t take my eyes away from all the information.
Reading the Dumpers series gives me a much better understanding of what you are trying to accomplish. In my mind I call it “the Perfected Art of Exercising Adaption of the Human Musculature”.
I am an Apprentice Electrician, so I can appreciate the benefit of not just having ANY tool, product, or material…….but the BEST to get the job done in the most efficient and safest way.
Keep up the good work and good luck….
Beau
Sorry, I meant “Adaptation”
😉
Sorry, I meant “Perfected Art of Exercising Adaptation of the Human Musculature”
😉