May
3
2012

Fair Play

120 comments written by Ken Hutchins

The Renaissance Exercise team has been very busy over the last few months training clients, prototyping and manufacturing the Renaissance line, certifying trainers, and planning a big event for fall of 2012. Unfortunately the blog page has fallen by the wayside as of late. We are currently completing Dumpers IV and getting ready to launch an introduction to four new pieces in the RenEx equipment line. In the meantime we decided to write a response to one of our viewer’s critiques.
– Joshua Trentine

Fair Play

An Opinion by Ken Hutchins

Some of our readers have asked why we criticize X-ForceTM exercise equipment so harshly especially when X-Force says nothing derogatory about RenEx®.

Note that to phrase the previous sentence as I did and others have done is an emotional charge. “Harsh” really has no place in the characterization of technical criticism. Criticism is criticism. Apparently, some people regard stark criticism as mean-spirited and unfair.

Also note that X-Force might not be openly critical of RenEx; however, they do make a statement… a big statement… by holding a presence in the marketplace. They are not merely a Ken Hutchins 20 years ago tinkering away in the privacy of his garage. When X-Force… or RenEx for that matter… takes action to garner huge financial resources to design and manufacture equipment and to promote it, they also expose themselves to all. And when they expose themselves they are tacitly assuming the risk of criticism in the marketplace. They make themselves fair game. They are not, metaphorically speaking, innocent bunnies that the Big Bad Wolf slaughters on Easter morning.

X-Force is not the only producer of the so-called Dumpers, and we do not single them out in our criticisms of the hyperloading mentality. However, X-Force does provide us with a somewhat unique and highly invaluable opportunity to study and to elucidate the principles therein that are abused and/or misapplied. Of the current genre of Dumpers, X-Force represents the only extant line that is weight-driven rather than robotically-driven.

Another attribute of X-Force is that it is more or less the progeny of the Jonesian Nautilus. Note that the Nautilus old guard swarmed around Arthur Jones for about 16 years—from about 1970 to 1986. The old guard was mostly comprised of young men who—as Eric Hoffer would put it—possessed “undifferentiated selves.” Their lives were empty and worthless. They had nothing else to attach themselves to, and required Arthur’s vision and machismo to develop their inner self-respect and confidence. Otherwise, they were doomed to aimlessly drift around searching for something—anything—to cling to that would provide their life meaning. (I state this with the realization that they might castigate me for this observation. Hopefully, they will seriously consider its truth if I also underscore that the characterization applies to me as well.) By the way, it was Arthur who bluntly pointed out these so-called true-believer traits in all of us. And he was correct.

Technically speaking, we of the Nautilus old guard considered ourselves able to speak a better understanding of exercise. In some ways we could, but also to a great extent we spoke only a different understanding.

Note that Arthur made a giant intellectual contribution with his Six Factors of Functional Ability. He also soared on the subject of work intensity versus work volume. And his stance on specificity in exercise was clear and courageous. In addition, we must acknowledge that Nautilus equipment pioneered proper tracking of muscle and joint function that no one else—SuperSlow® Systems, RenEx, and MedX® excepted—has managed to maintain, much less improve upon. However, Arthur was incorrect with much of the Nautilus Philosophy: The Ten Requirements of Full-Range Exercise, the proper speed of motion, the correct resistance curves, friction minimization, the position of full muscular contraction, unilateral loading, etc.

And Arthur was blatantly inconsistent in some areas. For example, Arthur’s design of the Leg Extension machine embodied a body attitude perfectly consistent with the principle of muscular sufficiency, but he was inept to explain why hip flexion was required in the body attitude for the Leg Curl (knee flexion)—the same principle at work with the same musculatures except in reverse.

And then he violated the sufficiency principle when he designed the Nautilus Compound Position Biceps and the Compound Position Triceps. Afterwards, the design crew at MedX—the MedX design crew was mostly comprised of the former Nautilus design crew—didn’t know any better than to copy the same body mechanics for the Compound Position Triceps. Instead of correcting the mistake with muscular sufficiency (they are/were truly ignorant of Arthur’s inconsistencies), they continue to proudly promote the constraint system in this machine.

My writings during the past 20 years have addressed all of the foregoing inaccuracies of Arthur Jones and early Nautilus. And I have also addressed his asinine assertions that Gregor Mendel faked his results in genetics, that lions run faster than cheetahs, and that the sound you hear in the woods emanating from a woodpecker as he pecks is due to the speed of his head breaking the sound barrier.

In retrospect, I see another important inconsistency with Arthur. With the backdrop that Arthur was strongly promoted to me as all-knowing and interested in all matters great and small, early in my Nautilus career Arthur rather put me off by one of his responses. It was cold, brusque and typical Arthur. I dismissed the offense in characteristically obedient fashion.

Before Nautilus I had taken a more-than-casual interest in breast cancer. I knew some of its history going back to Drs. George Crile senior and junior as well as Dr. William Stewart Halsted. With my father and others I had talked at length about the then-current policy of informed consent when approaching the possibility of surgical intervention. I had studied some of the studies involving isolated (walled-off) tissues as well as contact-cell inhibition (a la Hayflick). This background led me to believe that proper strength training might work as a prophylactic and/or treatment. I was forward thinking, though perhaps a bit naïve.

When I asked Arthur about the subject his response was: “Ken, I have no opinion regarding breast cancer or any other form of cancer. It serves no interest of mine to have an opinion; therefore I don’t have an opinion.”

So, he had no interest in cancer—even to a slight degree—but it did serve his interest to assert an opinion on supersonic woodpeckers?

We do, indeed, now have some usefulness for strength training in the rehabilitation following breast cancer surgery. What other applications it may have are very speculative. Nevertheless, we may have some articles posted on this subject in the near future.

In 1986, Arthur sold our little fantasy world out from under us (I speak as though he had no right to do whatever he wanted with his company—ha.) and some of us swarmed around him again at MedX. There, the Arthur Jones Institute was eventually formed—a virtual shrine to the man.

And within the last several years Arthur has passed and some of us remaining oldsters have swarmed to X-Force. I maintain that some of the old guard are emotionally needful of the good ol’ days with Arthur and X-Force supplies this to a great degree. Without this attachment they are empty selves again as they were before meeting Arthur. It is important to them that X-Force arises and survives. It is the phoenix of Nautilus in their psyches. And requisite here is a repeat of the original Nautilus rhetoric.

Note that if you first become inculcated with the vintage Nautilus literature and then read the new, beautifully printed X-Force brochures, you can imagine being at 1970s-era Nautilus Sports/Medical Industries again. X-Force is, ostensibly, vintage Nautilus repackaged and reincarnated to a great extent.

In essence, X-Force represents the Nautilus old guard, including the same quintessential folklore. I remain fond of the Jonesian war stories, but I’ve long since abandoned the head trash that serves to maintain the well-meaning but incorrect slant on the hyperloaded negative and several other important principles. It would be irresponsible to the extreme (for me, for RenEx, and even for the Nautilus old guard) to waste this opportunity to critically re-examine this information and perhaps correct the thinking of all.

At one time, all of us as a group were an influential force. And it can be again, but it must be reconstituted with updated information.

By the writing of the Dumpers series, we at RenEx learn as much as the readers. It fuels much productive discussion among us as well as with others. Of course, some readers don’t always appreciate our approach to criticism. They see us as unprovoked aggressors. This is expected and unavoidable.

Some have criticized, “Why can’t the RenEx boys just state the attributes of their equipment and let other companies state theirs? Why do they insist on attacking X-Force and other companies?”

No one gets a free pass on criticism—RenEx included. There are websites out there where we are royally roasted. This is good. It forces us to think and to reconsider what we say and how we say it. It reveals perspectives we might not have adequately explained.

Also note that RenEx equipment is merely the physical manifestation that best facilitates the application of RenEx exercise principles. (Please seriously study the foregoing sentence.) The tail does not wag the dog here. The equipment does not determine the principles. The principles are valid—or not—regardless of whether or not Ken Hutchins and/or the equipment exist. They are valid if there is no RenEx. They stand on their own. They must!

And if something is incorrect—especially if something is incorrect as well as dangerous—it is also wrong in a moral sense. And it needs to be exposed so that everyone can understand that it is wrong. Anything else is shirking responsibility.

There are many other issues out in the fitness industry that are as bad or worse—sometimes far worse—than the Dumpers. But as we move forward to take on these issues we must put our own house in order. I am referring here to the greater community we call High-Intensity Exercise.

{ 120 comments… read them below or add one }

avatar John Tatore May 3, 2012 at 11:49 am

Guys … don’t do it to late in the fall … snow and ice …. the cab driver driving me to the airport in March went into a skid and we smashed into two guard rail … thankfully the car was could still get me to the airport

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 3, 2012 at 3:15 pm

Hey, John I agree…

Shooting for early Oct. announcement to come.

Reply

avatar Hugh May 3, 2012 at 12:07 pm

Well done! Thanks for posting this. Hugh

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:58 am

Thanks Hugh

Reply

avatar Joel Waldman May 3, 2012 at 12:32 pm

All well said Ken…you are certainly correct about those of us who felt lost and a great sense of loss when Nautilus, MedX, and Arthur Jones were gone as our guiding light. Keep up your good work…but remember…anguishing over the perfect workout, tool, methodology is an academic endeavor at best…end or final results are as we all know genetically predetermined…and all of us in this community are…if we can be honest with ourselves…genetically challenged or we would have long ago taken on the appearance of a top bodybuilder even if the barbell was our tool of choice. We are all frustrated bodybuilders with more brains than brawn and those brains have challenged us to see that magic machine…set/rep combo…training frequency…to help us look more like Arnold, Mike, or Dorian…Joel Waldman

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 5, 2012 at 1:45 am

We think this goes way beyond having the biggest muscles.

We are trying to provide a universal system for anyone to experience what we are getting from our workouts.

“anguishing over the perfect workout, tool, methodology is an academic endeavor at best”
—-Joel why try to make ANYTHING better? Why try to find the answers? why bother to do anything when good enough already exists? where would we be if this were our mentality about everything?

Joshua

Reply

avatar John Parr May 3, 2012 at 1:23 pm

Great, Great article Guys.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:58 am

Thanks John!

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 3, 2012 at 1:34 pm

And then he violated the sufficiency principle when he designed the Nautilus Compound Position Biceps and the Compound Position Triceps. Afterwards, the design crew at MedX—the MedX design crew was mostly comprised of the former Nautilus design crew—didn’t know any better than to copy the same body mechanics for the Compound Position Triceps. Instead of correcting the mistake with muscular sufficiency (they are/were truly ignorant of Arthur’s inconsistencies), they continue to proudly promote the constraint system in this machine.

==Scott==
I have other comments on this article but for now what is ment when you say he violated the sufficiency principle with the compound bicep or tricep? What would have improved that movement/machine?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 3, 2012 at 4:58 pm

Sufficiency is thoroughly discussed in a sidebar on page 216 of the RoE-I. The sidebar mostly exhibits wrist function and knee extension and flexion exercises as examples, but brachial biceps and triceps exercises are equally relevant.

In a properly designed biceps exercise, the elbows must be placed as inferior as practically possible. And just the opposite is true for the triceps exercise. These required positionings negate the reasoning for the so-called “compound position.”

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 4, 2012 at 8:20 am

In a properly designed biceps exercise, the elbows must be placed as inferior as practically possible. And just the opposite is true for the triceps exercise. These required positionings negate the reasoning for the so-called “compound position.”

==Scott==
Thanks for responding but I have no idea what you mean here?Elbows place in an inferior position? Inferior to what? Can you give a more laymen s explanation to this?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 5, 2012 at 1:51 am

Elbows as low as possible

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 9, 2012 at 8:42 am

==Scott==
So are you saying that to work the biceps the elbows should be more in a position like the position they are in the Nautilus compound tricep??

avatar Russ May 3, 2012 at 2:00 pm

Many years ago I believe it was Kim Woods brother was delivering some New Nautilus equipment to my gym and the fellow with Kim’s brother made the statement to me I was a True Beliver as in the book by Eric Hoffer if I remember.

I took some offense to that statement so many years ago. I do not take offense today. Searching for the truth in any realm is an honorable endevor. The Secret is continuing to seak but proceeding with the best information at hand. Arthur was that then Ken and Josh represent a move to the best we can do now. Sir Issac Newton when asked how it did what he did He said “It was easy I stood on the shoulders of giants!” Thanks Ken well done piece I agree whole heartedly.

Reply

avatar Luke O'Rourke May 3, 2012 at 2:22 pm

Many people are uncomfortable with independence as it requires one to think and to define themselves and their actions. No physical work will ever be as hard as true thinking and most people actively avoid it. Many people would rather blindly, and comfortably follow the pack, or a prophet -al a Jones. They would avoid honest intellectual confrontation and constructive criticism. Many people have such poorly developed self-esteem that any criticism is seen as an attack, even when the critique is honest, without malice and would correct and improve a situation.

Many people could bets be described as whim worshipers, driven by their emotions and not by clearly defined ideas. X-Force may assume if they are successful in the marketplace then their principles and applications thereof are sound, but this would be like saying a politician has the right ideas because he was elected. When one misinformed is supported by many misinformed it does not magically add up to rationality.

If X-Force were to market their equipment as recreational then there would be no problem. Using the word exercise should be like using the word medicine.

Perhaps people feel with the truly narrow application of exercise that you are depriving them of their choice of variety, like the clothes they wear and the car they drive. They still have not grasped the difference between exercise and recreation.

Reply

avatar Richard May 3, 2012 at 9:01 pm

Great article Ken Hutchins; great post Joel Waldman!

Reply

avatar JesseS May 3, 2012 at 11:44 pm

So do you believe that Dr.Darden is emotionally needful of the good old days and that is why he promotes X-force? Is he one of these “empty selves?”

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 6, 2012 at 11:26 am

perhaps? : I believe that Ken already allowed Arthur to address this in the article.

Reply

avatar Donnie Hunt May 4, 2012 at 12:06 am

Another thought provoking article. Always enjoy the articles on this site even though I feel like I got lost in some of the friction limiting parts explanations for the RenEx machines 🙂 What information I do grasp seems to make a great deal of sense.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:57 am

Thanks Donnie

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 4, 2012 at 8:44 am

==Scott==
Ken, I can appreciate what you say about Jones and his blind followers of which at one point you were included in that group. I can see that while much of what Jones preached was right , some of it was wrong. I can see that REN-EX machines might be an improvement over some of the older Nautilus machines but the big stumbling block really is , with all the fancy talk and new protocol etc, does REN-EX really produce better results than can be had with older conventional methods? It seems clear that the REN-EX way might be safer but does it build muscles faster or stronger than can be had with a conventional Nautilus workout or an X-Force workout or other older methods that have been employed by bodybuilders for ages? Other than some trainers like McGuff saying he had a great workout on the REN-EX machines you really haven’t provided any evidence that the REN-EX way works any better than anything else at building muscle.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 5, 2012 at 11:36 am

Scott,

Thanks for your questions. We don’t have evidence.

Best wishes with your training.

Reply

avatar Stan May 6, 2012 at 2:46 am

Thank you for a simple, direct answer to that question.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:52 am

You are welcome.

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 7, 2012 at 7:41 am

==Scott==
Thanks for the honest answer.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:53 am

no sweat

Reply

avatar Joe A May 5, 2012 at 12:42 pm

Josh,

Has Ken considered making RoE Volume II a photo flip book of muscle building testimonials? This might satisfy Scott’s inquiry…

I would like to be credited in the Acknowledgments if he uses this idea, though.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 6, 2012 at 11:24 am

Yes…we were thinking it would be best if the heavily muscled men were pop out characters in the book 🙂

Reply

avatar Brent Musselman May 4, 2012 at 1:43 pm

Ken…Well said soulful wisdom which can be applied to Life!!! Thank for the Lesson!!! I am greatly appreciative of your knowledge and teachings!

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:56 am

Thanks Brent! i hope your are healing ok from your little culinary accident.

Reply

avatar Russ May 4, 2012 at 2:38 pm

We are always limited to our DNA and the potential to express it by upregulating by a stimulus whether by exercise or diet. Arthur said to me once “don’t confuse your genetics with knowledge on the subject Russ” He had introduce Casey to me as the resident genetic freak. Renex technique and equipment are better to measure changes and adaptations. Better results? Safer yes, repeatabilty yes, the very best exercise tools yes, What more do we want? I’d like a magic solution. The Renex group are truly the point of the spear of the renaissance of exercise.

Reply

avatar David B May 5, 2012 at 2:15 pm

Too bad Hutchins forgets he was one of the people he is describing in the article.

d

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 6, 2012 at 11:22 am

“Technically speaking, WE of the Nautilus old guard considered ourselves able to speak a better understanding of exercise. In some ways we could, but also to a great extent WE spoke only a different understanding.”
================================================

“I state this with the realization that they might castigate me for this observation. Hopefully, they will seriously consider its truth if I also underscore that the characterization applies to me as well.”

-Ken Hutchins- (quoted directly from said article)

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 7, 2012 at 7:43 am

==Scott==
I think if I read him correctly he admits at one point he was one of the people he was describing?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 8, 2012 at 12:45 am

Yes. It helps when people actually read the articles.

Reply

avatar Karl May 5, 2012 at 9:59 pm

Do you consider Mats Thulin, founder of X-force, part of the Nautilus old guard? According to his biography, he didn’t even meet Arthur Jones until 1980. And after meeting Jones, he and two partners devoted themselves to building up a chain of Nautilus based training facilities in Europe. Right now, they have upwards of 120 centers. As of 2006, the company had revenues of about SEK340,000,000 ($48,000,000)/year. Hard to reconcile that record of accomplishment with this kind of characterization:

“The old guard was mostly comprised of young men who—as Eric Hoffer would put it—possessed “undifferentiated selves.” Their lives were empty and worthless. They had nothing else to attach themselves to, and required Arthur’s vision and machismo to develop their inner self-respect and confidence. Otherwise, they were doomed to aimlessly drift around searching for something—anything—to cling to that would provide their life meaning.”

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 6, 2012 at 5:26 pm

“The old guard was mostly comprised of young men who—as Eric Hoffer would put it—possessed “undifferentiated selves.” Their lives were empty and worthless. They had nothing else to attach themselves to, and required Arthur’s vision and machismo to develop their inner self-respect and confidence. Otherwise, they were doomed to aimlessly drift around searching for something—anything—to cling to that would provide their life meaning.”

First: Note that my article is clearly labeled “an opinion.”

Second: I don’t know Mats Thulin.

Third: I used “mostly” with regard to the characterization of those of the Nautilus old guard.

Fourth: Your statements regarding the X-Force presence and worth corroborate my assertion that X-Force has a notable presence in the marketplace. Your statements also corroborate my assertion that therein is a significant background and history of Nautilus influence.

Fifth: To get a reasonable assessment of any individual, one must study—not merely read—Hoffer’s work, True Believer. Its message is timeless. True Believer is often required reading in graduate social studies, is sometimes included in seminary curriculum, and was usually shoved into anyone’s hand if they visited the Eisenhower White House.

One day at Nautilus in 1981, I was sitting at a desk reading Positioning by Reis and Trout. Arthur came into the room, ripped the book from my hands, looked at its cover and jacket for a moment, then said, “If you want to really understand marketing, Ken, you must read the ultimate marketing book, True Believer.” I promised him that I would, and every time Arthur spoke to me for the next two years he asked me if I had read it.

Then, in 1983 Arthur came to Gainesville to visit the Osteoporosis Project. After an initial walk through, Arthur stepped out onto a stoop and I followed a few steps behind him. Speaking loudly so that he could hear me, I said, “Arthur, I finally read True Believer.” Instantly, he spun around with his finger in my face and asked, “How do you like yourself?”

-Ken Hutchins-

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 7, 2012 at 12:35 pm

Then, in 1983 Arthur came to Gainesville to visit the Osteoporosis Project. After an initial walk through, Arthur stepped out onto a stoop and I followed a few steps behind him. Speaking loudly so that he could hear me, I said, “Arthur, I finally read True Believer.” Instantly, he spun around with his finger in my face and asked, “How do you like yourself?”

-Ken Hutchins-

==Scott==

Not having the book True Believer I can only guess what you are talking about but what was Arthur trying to get at and what was your response?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 8, 2012 at 1:35 pm

Short of printing, reviewing, and dissecting all of True Believer on this blog my answer to you is to repeat what Arthur said to me, “Read True Believer.”

-Ken Hutchins-

Reply

avatar Russ Wakefield May 6, 2012 at 8:07 pm

Great Story about Arthur Ken. Did you ever get a chance to respond? He was very hard to get a word in the few times I met with him. It was mostly story telling time and he had a zillion to offer.

Ken you and Josh bring 20 additional years of reasoning to improve exercise and to make it safer and more measurable.

The last time I spoke to Arthur, “He said jump on a plane and come down.”
I was operating a training program in Ft Worth TX I’m sorry I didn’t go
There would of been alot more stories. Life is for the living it is great that Renex has continued on with rational exercise.

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 6, 2012 at 10:37 pm

Hi Josh,

Could you please clarify something for me when you are talking about “negatives” are you saying that there is no need to add extra weight or force in the negative phase of the exercise. Are you saying that all you need to do is lower the weight that you lifted in the positive phase. I have tried to adopt the renaissance principles of exercise to my training and just wanted to clarify that point. I have access to 1994 MedX equipment is this still allright to train on using renaissance principles I have found that since I have started using renaissance principles my result have improved.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 7, 2012 at 10:46 pm

“Hi Josh,
Could you please clarify something for me when you are talking about “negatives” are you saying that there is no need to add extra weight or force in the negative phase of the exercise? Are you saying that all you need to do is lower the weight that you lifted in the positive phase?”

No need what so ever, the reasons are detailed in the “Dumpers” series and a four part article called “Negative Thoughts”. I’m writing one more article on the subject.

8 to 12 second positive and negative works great on MedX Chest Press, Overhead Press,…decent on LP, decent on PullDown and Seated Dip …..poor on rotary form exercises, but passable on MedX Prone Leg Curl. Many MedX curves are not ideal for this protocol.

Reply

avatar Drew Baye May 7, 2012 at 9:43 am

Steven,

It is not only unnecessary to increase the resistance during the negative but problematic for several reasons, one of the most important being control during the turnarounds. It’s not just their approach, however; the whole philosophy behind hyperloading the negative is wrong.

While some people seem to think RenEx is being too harsh on X-Force my personal opinion is they’re not being harsh enough. After using the machines I believe it is necessary to warn people about them due to serious safety issues related to the weight control mechanism, cams and other poor design features.

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 7, 2012 at 2:24 pm

==Scott==
It’s not so much that REN-EX came down hard on X-Force so much as the fact that they posted links to negative discussions about it on a site run by Darden who is testing such equipment. It would be like me coming on here saying go to the Darden forum and see how bad REN-EX is.
Please do tell us about these safety issues and other poor design features.

Reply

avatar Joe A May 7, 2012 at 4:34 pm

Scott,

When you want to discuss something with your wife, do you simply talk out load and hope she hears you?

If the RenEx team had concerns with X-Force and wanted to engage Dr. Darden in a discussion, should they simply post here and hope that he is following? I don’t see the problem with initiating discussion on his discussion forum…personally, I think it would have been disrespectful not to bring it up directly.

Any hyperlinks that may have been posted to the RenEx site had to be approved by a moderator (all comments are moderated) . If that is the issue,then it is with the mods, not RenEx.

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 8, 2012 at 8:56 am

When you want to discuss something with your wife, do you simply talk out load and hope she hears you?If the RenEx team had concerns with X-Force and wanted to engage Dr. Darden in a discussion, should they simply post here and hope that he is following? I don’t see the problem with initiating discussion on his discussion forum…personally, I think it would have been disrespectful not to bring it up directly.

Any hyperlinks that may have been posted to the RenEx site had to be approved by a moderator (all comments are moderated) . If that is the issue,then it is with the mods, not RenEx.

==Scott==
Yes, if she’s in hearing distance that’s exactly what I do.Would you suggest I write her for permission before I speak? This makes no sense. You have an odd sense of decency to suggest that posting things against something he is experimenting with on his own forum is a good thing? So as long as the moderators let it go you feel the floor is open to say anything ?? I guess that anything goes attitude is standard procedure now days in the business world. Darden tries to be open minded and let most anything go on his forum good or bad towards his philosophy. I can’t say the same for this blog.
Lastly I find it comical that you seem to infer that REN-EX is bringing up discussion about X-Force to warn folks of the dangers etc of it. It’s clear that REN-EX is challenged by the appearance of X-force and they’re obviously trying to knock it to boost your own product.

Reply

avatar Joe A May 8, 2012 at 3:12 pm

Scott,

Saying, “If she’s in hearing distance” is exactly my point. Why would the RenEx team assume Darden is in “hearing distance” by posting somewhere other than his site?

And let’s be clear, this situation has nothing to do with my sense of decency, it has to do with discussion and debate (something you have whined about for months). Dr. Darden operates a “discussion” forum; a place where he, as you suggest, “tries to be open minded and let most anything go on his forum good or bad towards his philosophy.” Are you actually arguing that it was inappropriate to open a discussion on a “discussion” forum? You have an odd sense of debate if you are suggesting that “posting things against something he is experimenting with” is a bad thing.

Good, bad or indifferent, every post is moderated. If Dr. Darden did not want something discussed, he had the opportunity and the mods to prevent it. Personally, I think it would have been disrespectful to post a critique somewhere else and not inform Darden of it; not provide the open invitation to respond; not be direct in their opposing perspective.

I find it comical that you read my response and concluded that I, “seem to infer that REN-EX is bringing up discussion about X-Force to warn folks of the dangers.” Please re-read what I said without your biased, mis-interpretive glasses on…I never suggested or implied anything remotely similar to your drivel.

avatar Drew Baye May 8, 2012 at 9:51 am

Scott,

The safety issues will be one of the things discussed in Dumpers part four.

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 9, 2012 at 10:09 am

Drew Baye..
While some people seem to think RenEx is being too harsh on X-Force my personal opinion is they’re not being harsh enough. After using the machines I believe it is necessary to warn people about them due to serious safety issues related to the weight control mechanism, cams and other poor design features.
So maybe it was Drew not you who said it, big difference. You’re all in the same club. Funny how what I say is whining and drivel yet what you say is spot on brilliant truth. You just can’t stand it when someone challenges your thinking.
Furthermore your notion that ” And let’s be clear, this situation has nothing to do with my sense of decency, it has to do with discussion and debate” is about decency. What the moderators allow has no baring on what is constituted as decency. On Dardens forum they allow folks to cuss each other out and say all kinds of derogatory things. Does that make what they say decent? REN-EX took advantage of Dardens willingness to allow most anything to be posted to his site and REN-EX used it to bash the product he’s investigating. It’s clear as a bell that X-Force is a threat to REN-EX hense the negative critique of it.

Reply

avatar Joe A May 9, 2012 at 3:30 pm

Scott,

You have yet to challenge my thinking on anything…and I’m not in any club…and the only person that has mentioned my brilliance is you. 🙂

You continue to let yourself get distracted from your own argument, your own inquiry, by all the periphery; you’ve simply made up a story in your own mind about what has transpired and then filter everything else through that bias. Your posts are unnecessarily inflammatory b/c of it. You continually miss the point b/c of it.

Answer this, Scott; not for me, but for yourself: Is opening a discussion on a discussion forum indecent? Regardless of Darden’s involvement in X-Force, he operates a public discussion forum. In light of that, and in light of his ‘notoriety’ within the HIT community, his endorsement of something makes people take notice. Does that mean it is indecent to disagree? Should his discussion forum not be a platform for that disagreement? Do you think there is a better, more decent venue for this discussion?

avatar Drew Baye May 10, 2012 at 10:30 am

Scott,

X-Force is not a threat to Ren-Ex. They, like several other companies, are just useful negative examples for teaching exercise performance and equipment design principles.

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:45 am

No worries we take aim at all of the Dumpers in the next article, X-Force is just a convenient example as it’s a selectorized, gravity based machine.

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:54 am

On two occasions in the last few months we went out to test drive some of the DUMPERS….In two occasions someone got hurt. Al hurt his neck on a motorized PullDown. Drew hurt his knee on a Dumper Leg Extension. I would guess these two are better conditioned and have better control than the average gym goer.

So we’re batting a 100% on Dumper machines…..remember exercise can only produce 1 thing directly…..anyone know what that is?

Joshua

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:55 am

exactly!

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 7, 2012 at 6:41 pm

Hi Drew,

Thanks for your response and I appreciate your advice. My reasoning for asking about the “negative” portion of the lift was and as you know that I tore the labrum in the shoulder whilst undertaking barbell bench press. Whilst I am in know way saying that the negative part of the bench press was the sole contributing factor as I have been exercising for the past 35 years the discussions about hyperloading loading the negative as got me wondering about the potential for injuries.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 8, 2012 at 1:32 pm

Hi Steven,

I ruptured my pec the same way, I’ll live with this injury for the rest of my life.

Joshua

Reply

avatar JesseS May 7, 2012 at 7:18 pm

“After using the machines I believe it is necessary to warn people about them due to serious safety issues related to the weight control mechanism, cams and other poor design features.”

I’m curious what these issues are and whether or not you believe a supervised workout by someone familiar with the machines(like Dr.Darden) would minimize them and lead to productive training for an advanced trainee.

Reply

avatar Drew Baye May 8, 2012 at 10:02 am

Jesse,

These will be discussed in Dumpers part four.

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 8, 2012 at 9:40 am

However, Arthur was incorrect with much of the Nautilus Philosophy: The Ten Requirements of Full-Range Exercise, the proper speed of motion, the correct resistance curves, friction minimization, the position of full muscular contraction, unilateral loading,

==Scott=

I also feel that Arthur may have been wrong in certain areas like shaping his cams to have to must resistance in the contracted position so I’d be interested in what you feel he was wrong at . It’s obvious his older machines were very friction laden and I’m sure he knew that but he didn’t want to spend a fortune changing all the machines bearing etc. Too costly. How was he wrong with things like position of full muscular contraction etc..

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 9, 2012 at 8:49 pm

The Myth of the Position of Full Muscular Contraction is featured in a sidebar on page 215 of the RoE-II.

Reply

avatar Jason May 8, 2012 at 4:12 pm

Dr. Darden has the most extensive collection of clinical data, case studies, and before/after pictures, and has supervised more diet/exercise groups in HIT training than anyone else in the world that I am aware of.

Darden has presented data on his site and at the recent HIT Resurgence conference from the results of his case studies training people on X-Force equipment. He states that in all his years of working with people and doing his studies, those involved in his X-Force program have gotten far and away the best results he has ever witnessed in his entire career. He claims that people are growing before his very eyes at a rate he has never seen. On guy he is training now has gained over 20 pounds after only 3 workouts. Some of this is likely fat weight, but apparently despite all this weight gain the guy does not appear noticeably fatter, so much of the weight gain must be muscle.

Additionally, Roger Schwab and Joe Cirulli — after a lifetime of hard training on Nautilus, MedX, etc. — are reporting significant muscle gains again since using X-Force — even at their advanced age.

If X-Force is so terrible, how do you explain the spectacular results people are getting from it? Furthermore, if RenEx is so superior, how do you explain the LACK of incredible results?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 8, 2012 at 9:59 pm

He also endorses the AB COSTER and Bowflex…different standards here.

Joshua

Reply

avatar Mark May 11, 2012 at 3:01 pm

Can you direct me to the details of the claimed 20 lb gain, (assumed to be mostly muscle), in 3 workouts. I’ve scrolled through Darden’s site and haven’t found it.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 11, 2012 at 4:10 pm

Hmmmmmm….I must be slow, it took me from age 21 to 36 to do that.

Reply

avatar Donnie Hunt May 8, 2012 at 9:34 pm

Really enjoying the different view points and discussions on this site and some of the other HIT sites. I find it all very motivating. Looking forward to Dumpers part 4. Maybe I’ll go back and read Dumpers part 2 and see if I can wrap my brain around more of the subject matter 🙂

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:42 am

Dumpers IV is really shaping up I can’t wait to drop it.

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 8, 2012 at 10:46 pm

I also agree with Donnie I think that from all the discussions including Scott’s posts have added to my own knowledge of proper exercise, for me it raises exercise to an “intellectual level”. I have found that most people think that the only prerequisite to training people is to have “big muscles”. I think that Ken has forced us to rethink many of our previous HIT principles this not a bad thing.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:41 am

Agreed Steven!

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 9, 2012 at 1:48 pm

==Scott==
On the other “forum” it is mentioned that when one gets into the contracted position on a superslow or REN-EX machine the resistance is such that on a lateral rise one could hold the arm up with a finger? Is that the case ? I’m trying to compare the cams of an old Nautilus to that of a REN-EX machine. Are the cams on a REN-EX machine designed such that the movement feels even through out but still hard enough in the contracted position to have enough resistance so that when applying a squeeze or pause one feels substantial tension in the contracted position?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 9, 2012 at 8:50 pm

Dumpers III delved into to this already and RoE-II will discuss it very thoroughly once it is published.

Reply

avatar Craig May 9, 2012 at 7:27 pm

I imagine that the injury risk with X-Force equipment depends a lot on how much weight is used relative to the trainee’s 1RM.  

If, for example, you start out with a concentric load that is 50% of 1 RM, then a 40% increase on the negative means you are having to restrain 70% of your 1 RM concentric concentric max during the ensuing eccentric.  That should not overly stress joints and connective tissue, assuming you are warmed up and have some experience with the machine.

On the other hand, if an unsupervised trainee were to start out with the concentric load at 95% of 1 RM, then they would be able to get the weight up for the first rep (albeit with some difficulty), and then be asked to restrain something like 133% of their 1 RM concentric strength on the ensuing negative.  If it is true that you are always 40% stronger on the eccentric than the concentric, then it should be possible for that individual to restrain the weight. But if they are not warmed up, and have little training experience, then that might not be good for connective tissues and joints that haven’t been conditioned to take load.

So I’d guess these machines would best be used under supervision or by people who know what they are doing.

Of course, a general principle of life is this: if some Dumb A** can injury himself by using equipment improperly, then eventually it will happen.  Just look at YouTube for the videos where some dumb kid tries to bench or squat double body weight with no training, and has the bar crush him after it is unracked….

Of course, this principle also could apply to RenEx.  We know that the cams on your machines fall off in the most contracted position.  So suppose the janitorial  crew decided to try a max negative rep with one of your new machines.   Guy gets into the machine, sets the weight stack at max.  Then his buddies help him lift the weight to the top position.  Due to the fall off in the cam, the weight can be held at the most contracted position.  But as soon as he starts the negative, on comes the weight, and his limbs get slammed.    Not a likely scenario, I’ll agree.  But it could happen if unsupervised folks were to have access to the machines.   

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 1:01 am

I believe the risk is just as great or even greater when their machines are used exactly as instructed….more in Dumpers IV. Coming SOON!

Reply

avatar Donnie Hunt May 10, 2012 at 2:59 pm

When is RoE 2 due out? Is RoE available currently?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:40 am

Shottin’ for early 2013

Reply

avatar joel waldman May 10, 2012 at 5:13 pm

Oh my goodness…you would think we were discussing rocket booster thrust required to put a satelite into orbit around Mars!!! Having trained clients successfully for over 40 years and lifted some pretty heavy weights myself both within the constraints of safety when I wanted to and outside those constraints when I wanted to and was aware of the risks and willing to accept them…I must say this is all much ado about nothing all that earth shattering…hard, heavy, slow, progressive….not much more really, is there?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 10, 2012 at 9:16 pm

We would like to avoid the joint replacements.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 10, 2012 at 11:37 pm

Not much Joel…again why try to make anything better? why try to find answers?

Reply

avatar joel waldman May 12, 2012 at 7:29 am

While I did require a bilateral hip replacement at a relatively young age, I firmly believe it was necessitated by the running/jogging that I foolishly engaged in for 14 years after college…no longer playing football and having been influenced by ken coopers work, I ran 10 to 20 miles per week on firm surfaces at 250 lbs….I believe this was the death knell for my hip cartilege….the doctor who performed my surgery told me that my hip sockets were congenitally shallow which didn’t help…and that the bone was almost marbleized and nearly impossible to cut through.
But years of heavy squatting, leg pressing, deadlifting, partial deadlifting and shrugging never seemed to bother me until about a year before the surgery….but running even a few strides was excruciating. Anyway, I agree…joint replacements I wouldn’t wish on anybody, but in my case I am convinced it was the running more than anything else that did me in.
I applaud your efforts to perfect exercise and exercise equipment…and safety is a major concern…maybe the number one concern…but for all but a very few very fragile types, I think the extreme attention to force reduction is unnecessary…and possibly counterproductive with regard to largescale strength increases and hypertrophy!
Anyway, I’m getting typers cramp from my deconditioned hands and forearms owing to not doing multiple sets of typing essays…lol

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:40 am

Joel, I consider myself a fragile type and I think most be are worse off than I in this regard. I will only recommended Ken Hutchins protocol as it is the only exercise modality that gets safer the better you are at it.

Joshua

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 14, 2012 at 2:06 pm

==Scott==
Now wouldn’t it be great if it was all that easy…Just get in a car and go,, it’s just that easy. Who cares which car is better , safer , faster or more economical etc?

Reply

avatar Donnie Hunt May 10, 2012 at 8:49 pm

Ok i see that the first volume is available on here.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 10, 2012 at 11:43 pm

yes sir.

Reply

avatar Donnie Hunt May 12, 2012 at 2:32 pm

@ Joel,

I’m curious about the TUL you found to be the most successful.

Reply

avatar Joel waldman May 12, 2012 at 8:51 pm

30 to 70 seconds was my titrated best tuls for all bodyparts and clients

Reply

avatar Russ Wakefield May 12, 2012 at 9:13 pm

TUL varies for many of my clients but for myself it seems to be 57 to 115 seconds. Josh what is your signature time? How about the rest of you?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 12, 2012 at 9:41 pm

Russ,

Thank you for the question, we cover our recommendations in RoE Volume I. We do have different ranges for different exercises.
Joshua

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 14, 2012 at 2:15 pm

==Scott==
I guess we’re back to that routine if you want an answer to that question, buy the book ?? Why don’t you just copy a pat answer to paste in response to every question saying…. buy our book ? Book sales would soar, ha ha……. Brother……

Reply

avatar mark May 14, 2012 at 11:19 pm

Hmm..so an exercise forum, filled with cutting-edge information, 100s of answers to questions, is also the only promotional venue for a related textbook, which they have the -nerve- to refer to! What a scam , huh? How dare they sell a book? They should just write a few thousand words every time someone asks as question. Better yet, put the whole book on-line for free, right?

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 15, 2012 at 12:36 am

Mark,

Thank you for saving me the key strokes…no matter what we do we’ll always get this type of criticism.

avatar Scott Springston May 15, 2012 at 7:58 am

==Scott==
Funny thing, Dr. Darden has put out scores of books and yet I don’t recall him ever saying in response to a question, that answer is on page 27 of my HIT training book # 27. You guys really have learned how to infuriate people better than just about anything. Keep up the good work, by next year you’ll have many more who hate you.

avatar Joe A May 15, 2012 at 3:11 pm

Scott,

Funny thing, you remind me of my three-year old, who gets similarly frustrated when he doesn’t get everything he wants just be cause he asks for it. The entitlement attitude is getting old; no one owes you anything. The sooner you accept this reality, the sooner your frustration subsides.

You seem to apply the “What Would Darden Do?” mode of operation to every situation, without considering context. And while I sympathize if you feel your points can’t stand on their own feet, please realize they can’t always stand on his either.
Unless I’m mistaken, Darden has never offered a certification program, of which his books would suffice as proprietary text for the required education. But even this becomes a moot point, if you drop the entitlement BS.

You allow yourself to be infuriated, which clouds your judgment in discerning “why” these answers aren’t offered up for “free” . You seem to think it is about the $$$ that can be made by evading your question, hoping you may buy a book. Have you considered that they may have simply decided not to waste their time trying to satisfy the “inquiry” of a person whose attention span cannot exceed that which is spoon fed to him in the comments section of a weblog??

I don’t mean to speak on anyone else’s behalf, so don’t take this as a ‘RenEx’ perspective. But, as an outsider looking in, I think you have been extended much patience; you’ve been pacified (coddled) long enough. Weaning isn’t always easy, but it is necessary for continued development…

avatar Joshua Trentine May 16, 2012 at 1:08 am

To Scott:

You haven’t noticed that almost every website offers both free information as well as items to sell offering the deeper insights to that information? You think people like Ell Darden set up a website costing tens of thousands of dollars without an object of making it pay for itself. This is commerce—plain, simple, and honest. It is how the world works.

You expect me to give away all my writings—not just the ones I labor over hundreds of hours for the free benefit of all who read this website—that I have spent most of my life assembling, collecting, writing and pondering with sleepless nights for the most part of 40 years. Do you expect me to give you my entire livelihood—including free workouts for the rest of my life, my patents, and my skills as a writer obtained with much discipline and submission to other writers who took the time to grill me?

Do you expect me to violate my own copyrights—rendering them null and void—by posting the Renaissance of Exercise on this website? How insolent. How arrogant. How dare you!

Ken Hutchins

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 16, 2012 at 1:14 am

Joe feel free to speak on my behalf….. I don’t know what more I can do, this is the same guy we offered to pay his entire way up here for the conference. More could have been learned there than on any site especially with guys like you, Doug McGuff, Boyer Coe and Randy Roach there along with the whole RenEx team and all of the people from OVERLOAD FITNESS.

Just goes to show that no matter what you do people are going to invent complaints.

avatar Scott Springston May 18, 2012 at 9:52 am

==Scott==
Then why bother with this blog if it’s to much trouble to answer questions?? The answer to that is that you just want to publish rah rah posts where you REN-EX folks all slap each other on the back and say how wonderful it all is. When someone questions what you say you skirt the issue by saying it’s all in our book. If you don’t want to discuss things then just title this blog or whatever you call it as a REN-EX pep rally, please no questions about what we say but we’d love to hear how much you love us!!

avatar mark May 19, 2012 at 3:30 pm

Definitions, spellings, originations of words? Look ’em up in the dictionary. Headlines? Buy a paper. Is it raining? Look out the window. Does that girl like you? Ask -her-. The forum isn’t here to replace other perfectly good sources, including Ken’s book.

Reply

avatar Russ Wakefield May 12, 2012 at 9:34 pm

thanks Joel Hope others put in best TUL’s

Reply

avatar Russ Wakefield May 15, 2012 at 2:10 pm

Scott–I often say the Cardio Queens dislike us and the Plate heads dislike us. That is not always a bad thing. Trying to keep the discourse on a rational basis not resorting to emotionalsim in the discussion is a better way to communicate. I don’t imagine anyone here hates you for your positions on various aspects of exercise. Like wise using that emotional langquage detracts from what you are trying to comunicate. Restate and please appreciate what Josh, Ken, Jeff are attempting to do. They feel they are right on many points. They don’t hate El or Matt but have concerns about the correct way to proceed.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 16, 2012 at 1:58 am

You have enemies? Good. That means you’ve stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-Winston Churchill-

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 18, 2012 at 10:16 am

==Scott==
I have no problem with having enemies! I’m sure I have quite a few but the enemies I have deserve their status as enemies for good reason. Do you know of any other person with my background who has hung around your arrogant and pompous ways and still has hopes that there may be something to your methods? I’m sure there’s very few indeed.. You make statements and I ask for answers to your statements and you can’t even give them with out a huge fuss. You guys really have no idea how annoying you really are. It’s like you are modeling yourselves after the Masons or something and one must have the special key and chant to get to the answer to the coded cryptic message. You talk of enemies but the fact is you are your own worst enemy!! I’ve fought long and hard to believe in you but you guys are so hard to deal with that it’s not worth the effort any more.

Reply

avatar Luke O'Rourke May 16, 2012 at 1:36 am

If I had known I could’ve gotten paid to learn from RenEx(like Scott) I would have started trolling sooner:)

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 16, 2012 at 1:55 am

lol…offer ended…lesson learned.

Reply

avatar Luke O'Rourke May 16, 2012 at 3:38 pm

Noooooo……………Maybe just a chapter listing for RoE 2 then. Come on Ken, I know you’re in there:)

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 17, 2012 at 10:33 am

Luke,

I am pleased that you are anxious to know the contents of RoE2. Ha…so am I. What I mean by this is that I really cannot predict the content with much accuracy. I believe that most writers first plan their subject material by a table of contents or chapter listing. I approach it the other way around. I begin writing and assembling and sequencing. And I really don’t know the end result until the last moment. The table of contents is the last step in my writing. And although I might provide a chapter listing from where I am now, it will not be the same six months later as I have deleted and augmented from the original.

Ken Hutchins

Reply

avatar Scott Springston May 18, 2012 at 10:18 am

==Scott==
Paid to learn from REN-EX? What sense is this??

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 16, 2012 at 11:12 pm

Hi Ken,

I agree with you and understand what you mean when you say “we have to get our own house in order first”. From all my years training sometimes in dangerous ways high intensity exercise is by far the most superior way to train. Far and away beyond any of the other “crap fitness fad craze” the so-called fitness industry experts shove on an unsuspecting public every few years.

I teach fitness courses here in Australia when I first started introducing HIT principles I was heavily criticised although I had a good concepts of HIT myself trying teach that to others was difficult. But I didn’t give up I went back and re-read most of the HIT material asked many questions to Drew Baye, Doug McGuff yourselves and many others in the HIT world. The negative criticism of HIT that I recieved forced me to gain a higher level of knowledge of proper exercise made me better understand HIT. RenX has now forced me to go a level higher in my understaning not just from a physiological standpoint but also from a physics and engineering standpoint in how RenX equipment was designed.

In saying this I also think that Arthur Jones made a huge contribution to HIT and you always give him his due credits for contributions even though he made errors. I think that some people are missing the point in your criticisms once we get the HIT/HIE in order than we can better take on the current fad/crap that many of the so-called fitness experts bring out every few years. What we must remember is that HIT has stood the test of time 1970’s on? it is not some type of fitness industry crap/fad it is by far the most superior way to exercise properly.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 18, 2012 at 12:31 am

Steven,

Thank you for taking the time to write this.

We’re thrilled to see that you are raising the standards in Australia.

Joshua

Reply

avatar Bob Lantis May 20, 2012 at 7:41 am

[ “once we get the HIT/HIE in order than we can better take on the current fad/crap that many of the so-called fitness experts bring out every few years. What we must remember is that HIT has stood the test of time 1970′s on? it is not some type of fitness industry crap/fad it is by far the most superior way to exercise properly.” ]

Indeed. My sense, though, is that the huge differentiation that RenEx offers within the HIT arena is that the more tightly focused RenEx goal is to maximize the potential for muscle STIMULATION, with all its superior metabolic benefits (per Hutchins, McDuff, et al,), as well as safety; whereas the general HIT community is more concerned with a much more loosely defined “intensity”, which is naturally more focused upon the process than it is the metabolic outcome. So, in my mind, RenEx steps beyond High Intensity Training into the more beneficial realm of High Stimulation Training. My personal goal is to have a rewarding “stimulation” experience, rather than only an “intense” experience.

This might be considered by some to be nit-picking, but I feel that the RenEx mission might be better served and communicated by “leaving the HIT nest” and establishing the new Renaissance of Exercise: High Stimulation Training.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 20, 2012 at 10:54 pm

Bob,

I tend to agree and it is likely best to completely differentiate ourselves.

Reply

avatar Joe A May 21, 2012 at 6:44 pm

If my opinion counts, I recommend against attempting to reduce your work down to an acronym or catchy phrase. You will effectively retard advancement (intellectual or otherwise) trying to appeal to the lazy-minded masses who require everything to come in a ready-made package with an easy to remember name consisting of four syllables or less.

“HIT” was a narrow-minded pigeon-holing of AJ’s work, IMO, that frankly, has done nothing to help the cause. If anything, it made matters worse…calling something “high intensity” when the accepted use of the phrase in exercise science literature has nothing to do with the concept being described was a big mistake. It is an effort-based model (to failure) not intensity (which is understood as a % of 1RM load). Immediately discreditable by the population they are trying to convince. “Training” was a poorly chosen word too; simply the wrong connotation for an activity that is performed mostly by individuals who are not preparing for competition…and the skill one is attempting to develop or improve is “inroading”, not the exercise movements. The usage of “training” just further confuses the objective, laying focus on an external outcome (reps, sets, etc).

Possibly nitpicking, but I’ve always felt “HIT” was a weak label for something with so much substance and accuracy. I’ve never used this terminology in my business and never considered myself a “HITer”…so I have no affinity for it.

Technology-enhanced, high-effort volition, with an intent of thorough inroad within minimum time for the purpose of improving one’s health and function…good luck making a suitable acronym for that…maybe just call it Renaissance Exercise? RenEx works too…if you’re in a hurry (read: can’t remember if there a two n’s or where to put the i).

Reply

avatar Bobby Coleman May 21, 2012 at 6:23 pm

Scott,

I see tons of answers to questions that have been posted on here. Not too sure why you are so opposed to paying for information of tremendous value. You act as if information should always be given away for free? That’s the problem with shit these days. You have tons of people out there wanting something for nothing.

My brother is part of the RenEx team and I purchased my own copy in Cleveland last year. Why? For a couple of reasons. One, I know that the value of knowledge I received from this book would far outweigh the price I invested in my own knowledge. Two, I fully believe in supporting those who take the TIME to share their knowledge and know that the time they have invested in getting this information out far outweighs the cost being asked. Three, you tend to take things much more seriously when you pay for it than when you’re given a “freebie”.

Everybody wants something for nothing these days…

Maybe that’s what separates the RenEx community from the rest…

*They are willing to invest in themselves
*They are willing to put the time in to mastering their skills and knowledge
*They train harder and smarter than anyone else out there

Looking forward to volume #2 that I will gladly invest in.

-BC

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 21, 2012 at 6:34 pm

Scott continues, here’s his latest attempt to bash us on another blog…SAD.

Yes, how dare me show an interest in what he said. How dare me want a proper response to a statement he had just made. How dare me expect such things on a question and answer blog. The title of this thread is “Message from REN-EX”.The message from REN-EX is love us or get lost. I’m finally to the point where I’m saying…you get lost REN-EX!!!

Reply

avatar Craig May 21, 2012 at 7:31 pm

Without passing judgement on, or offering my own review of, ROE-1 (which I did buy), I do want to point out that there are dozens of exercise guru’s on the Internet who peddle swill and nonsense using basically this same message: I have this amazing training protocol/system /supplement/device which has tranformed countless trainee’s, turning skinny geeks into Greek Gods. I can do that for you too! All you need to do to enjoy this treasure trove of information is send me $XX, and the book/DVD/Supplements/device will be on the way.

Separating the wheat from the chaff can be difficult. People who follow this stuff should be deeply skeptical and suspicious of most of what is claimed in the business, since much effort has been made by many people to separate desperate muscle seeking young (and not so young) men from their hard earned $$$’s.

Fair or not, that is the business climate that you are operating in.

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 21, 2012 at 6:25 pm

Hi Josh,

I noticed in the articles section that Ken has written a number of articles criticizing other types of machines and other training methods. I haven’t read any complaints from any body about him writing these articles, no one posted defending these machines or training methods. From my perspective Ken is saying that if it is good enough to criticize the “opposition” than we should be prepared to be criticized even if it is from within.

I believe that Ellington Darden first wrote HIT to define Intensity, Progression, Form, Duration, Frequency, Order. Maybe Bob is right that RenX use another term other than HIT to differentiate RenX. But the training principles would remain very much the same as Ellington Darden outlined during the 1970s.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 21, 2012 at 6:35 pm

I haven’t read any either.

Reply

avatar Bobby Coleman May 21, 2012 at 6:43 pm

Sounds like a bit of frustration from someone who isn’t willing to put the time in.

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” -Gandhi

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 22, 2012 at 9:21 pm

I LOVE THIS QUOTE

Reply

avatar Steven Turner May 22, 2012 at 1:56 am

Hi,
Joe A makes some very good points I think that this post has provided some very good discussion points I hope the points made helps the RenX team. I agree with many of the point that Joe makes.

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine May 22, 2012 at 9:26 pm

Hey Steven,

I like what Joe A. says here.

Reply

avatar mark June 9, 2012 at 2:38 pm

From what I’ve seen, the most pervasive “dumper” presence is the no-stack, motorized ARX, which has the only affordable home unit. The fourth installment is badly needed!

Reply

avatar Joshua Trentine June 9, 2012 at 4:52 pm

Mark,

We’re close…shootin’ for early next week. We’ve been so busy that it’s hard to make time to write.

Joshua

Reply

Cancel reply

Leave a Comment

Previous post:

Next post: